Close decision?

This situation arose the other night (not at Somersham).

2 tables, 7 at the table, freeze-out. UTG goes all-in for 15-20 big blinds, seat 4 folds, seat 5 goes all-in for 30 BBs. You are in seat 6 with KK and a stack of 50 BBs. UTG is a good aggressive player, maybe a little loose, seat 5 somewhat tighter. Question: what do you do, and why?

Not that i'm an expert. This is how i'd look at it.

UTG could shove with any pair or ak, aq, aj.

I don't think he would shove with AA, just call or ssmall raise hoping someone else would Reraise then he could shove

Even though they are short stacked it's not the best position to push with nothing.

Seat 5 has re raised all in. So wants to isolate UTG. A med high pair or maybe AK, AQ ,AJ or even big suited connector.


So I with KK would shove it all in to put off the blinds,


Worst case is that both have pairs (especially AA but I think it's not often you see AA againts KK pre flop) and one hit trips but even if seat 5 wins you still have 20BB. Maybe both have a big Ace. happy days.

Why would UTG push with the nuts pre flop with 6 more possible raisers that he could go over the top of?

What would you do in seat 5 with Aces. I probably would go all in (depending on the stack sizes left in play). If I called 20BB leaving me 10BB and then a large stack say 100BB called and he misses flop.

You are pot commited so have to shove your final 10BB. So Mr big stack might have a straight or flush draws or hit runner runner for trips. There are 70BB in the pot, only 10BB is the bet, he has to call.

I would push in seat 5 with any of the following AA, but also KK, QQ, JJ,1010

You cannot fold kings pre flop in this situation especially as even if you loose you are still in the game. Also if you fold KK and the other 2 players turn over hands that you would have beaten think of the tilt factor, you may find yourself pushing on a draw in 3 hands time!!

If you win, you have 100BB and you can play much more marginal hands and not over commit yourself and also great for bluffing on the button

Anyway that's just my view

skisimon wrote:

Not that i'm an expert. This is how i'd look at it.

UTG could shove with any pair or ak, aq, aj.

I don't think he would shove with AA, just call or ssmall raise hoping someone else would Reraise then he could shove

Even though they are short stacked it's not the best position to push with nothing.

Seat 5 has re raised all in. So wants to isolate UTG. A med high pair or maybe AK, AQ ,AJ or even big suited connector.

So I with KK would shove it all in to put off the blinds,

Worst case is that both have pairs (especially AA but I think it's not often you see AA againts KK pre flop) and one hit trips but even if seat 5 wins you still have 20BB. Maybe both have a big Ace. happy days.

Why would UTG push with the nuts pre flop with 6 more possible raisers that he could go over the top of?

What would you do in seat 5 with Aces. I probably would go all in (depending on the stack sizes left in play). If I called 20BB leaving me 10BB and then a large stack say 100BB called and he misses flop.

You are pot commited so have to shove your final 10BB. So Mr big stack might have a straight or flush draws or hit runner runner for trips. There are 70BB in the pot, only 10BB is the bet, he has to call.

I would push in seat 5 with any of the following AA, but also KK, QQ, JJ,1010

You cannot fold kings pre flop in this situation especially as even if you loose you are still in the game. Also if you fold KK and the other 2 players turn over hands that you would have beaten think of the tilt factor, you may find yourself pushing on a draw in 3 hands time!!

If you win, you have 100BB and you can play much more marginal hands and not over commit yourself and also great for bluffing on the button"

Anyway that's just my view

OK, I didn't tell you enough about UTG: he wouldn't shove with AJ or a pair less than JJ in that situation (I think, based on what I know of him).
AA or KK he'd play slower, as you suggest. So he's got AK, AQ, QQ, maybe JJ.

Hmm, seat 5 has at least QQ or AK I think; he knows UTG also.

I totally agree about the tilt factor. But here's something else: if I fold and it's wrong, I shut up about it, even though that evening is destroyed by tilt. But if I fold and it's right, then I show my KK afterwards and have an amazing table image for a long time to come, as the guy good enough to make a correct pre-flop laydown of KK. (I didn't think of that bit until afterwards, sad to say.)

[BTW, I made the wrong decision in the end. Of course.]

nick wrote:

skisimon wrote:

Not that i'm an expert. This is how i'd look at it.

UTG could shove with any pair or ak, aq, aj.

I don't think he would shove with AA, just call or ssmall raise hoping someone else would Reraise then he could shove

Even though they are short stacked it's not the best position to push with nothing.

Seat 5 has re raised all in. So wants to isolate UTG. A med high pair or maybe AK, AQ ,AJ or even big suited connector.

So I with KK would shove it all in to put off the blinds,

Worst case is that both have pairs (especially AA but I think it's not often you see AA againts KK pre flop) and one hit trips but even if seat 5 wins you still have 20BB. Maybe both have a big Ace. happy days.

Why would UTG push with the nuts pre flop with 6 more possible raisers that he could go over the top of?

What would you do in seat 5 with Aces. I probably would go all in (depending on the stack sizes left in play). If I called 20BB leaving me 10BB and then a large stack say 100BB called and he misses flop.

You are pot commited so have to shove your final 10BB. So Mr big stack might have a straight or flush draws or hit runner runner for trips. There are 70BB in the pot, only 10BB is the bet, he has to call.

I would push in seat 5 with any of the following AA, but also KK, QQ, JJ,1010

You cannot fold kings pre flop in this situation especially as even if you loose you are still in the game. Also if you fold KK and the other 2 players turn over hands that you would have beaten think of the tilt factor, you may find yourself pushing on a draw in 3 hands time!!

If you win, you have 100BB and you can play much more marginal hands and not over commit yourself and also great for bluffing on the button"

Anyway that's just my view

OK, I didn't tell you enough about UTG: he wouldn't shove with AJ or a pair less than JJ in that situation (I think, based on what I know of him).
AA or KK he'd play slower, as you suggest. So he's got AK, AQ, QQ, maybe JJ.

Hmm, seat 5 has at least QQ or AK I think; he knows UTG also.

I totally agree about the tilt factor. But here's something else: if I fold and it's wrong, I shut up about it, even though that evening is destroyed by tilt. But if I fold and it's right, then I show my KK afterwards and have an amazing table image for a long time to come, as the guy good enough to make a correct pre-flop laydown of KK. (I didn't think of that bit until afterwards, sad to say.)

[BTW, I made the wrong decision in the end. Of course.]

Can't see how holding onto KK after mucking then showing them will help your table image, it just looks really tight in that you could knock out 2 players and even if you loose you still have chips.

Much better to call

doyle brunson says ...'never fold kings pre-flop'
and heres the theory........if you consider this situation 10 times heres the breakdown of the likely scenarios.

are you really that good that you can put someone on the only hand that you dont want to play against???

- if you were put in this situation 10 times and folded because you thought you were up against aces, youd be wrong 7/8 times out of 10.

- therefor, if you called 10 times out of 10, you may find you were up against aces 2/3 times.....and out of those 2/3 times....youre likely to out draw them once anyway

- but doyles theory is that nobody on the planet is good enough to know for a fact, 100%, that their kings are behind preflop......

- ive laid down kings twice preflop......and been wrong both times. (i actually gave my opponent too much credit, and it turned out they were just overplaying AK, or a weeker pair)

- my opinion is rapidly changing to this.....if its good enough for doyle, its good enough for me!



good chat!

cookie wrote:

doyle brunson says ...'never fold kings pre-flop'
and heres the theory........if you consider this situation 10 times heres the breakdown of the likely scenarios.

are you really that good that you can put someone on the only hand that you dont want to play against???

- if you were put in this situation 10 times and folded because you thought you were up against aces, youd be wrong 7/8 times out of 10.

- therefor, if you called 10 times out of 10, you may find you were up against aces 2/3 times.....and out of those 2/3 times....youre likely to out draw them once anyway

- but doyles theory is that nobody on the planet is good enough to know for a fact, 100%, that their kings are behind preflop......

- ive laid down kings twice preflop......and been wrong both times. (i actually gave my opponent too much credit, and it turned out they were just overplaying AK, or a weeker pair)

- my opinion is rapidly changing to this.....if its good enough for doyle, its good enough for me!


good chat!

1stly cookie Doyle who?

i need more info to post my true opinion on this (blinds? is it a donkament? or is it all good standard players? clock? is it the deep stages so getting near the money?)

assuming the blinds are quite large at this stage and we are getting near the cash. im folding KK here my reason being

chances are you are against at best AQ AQ but if you against 2 under pairs yes your in good shape but with all that chips in the pot if the BB or SB are huge stacks they may value shove with any 2 cards? and like we all know f your all in pre with AA KK you dont wanna be in with 3 or more players i always panic against 2 players when im holding aces (but i cant ever fold them preflop) but in this instince im folding KK.


if its early stages of a 14 handed sng for a tenna in a pub full of mates then SHIP IT all in and clench your cheeks!

Folding a pair of Kings pre-flop??? I'm normally so bloody grateful to have them I dont think I could ever lay them down preflop....... In what situation is it deemed reasonable to do that??

for you miss wilson.....NEVER EVER